Jaiden Robinson 00:00:07  Hello everyone and welcome back to The Rave Social Podcast. I’m your host, Jaiden, and today we have Kaili. She is the Queen literally of copywriting. She’s so good at digital products. Her email templates are amazing. I’ve used them, I tell everyone about her and I’m so excited for her to be on the podcast today to talk to us about digital products and copywriting. So why don’t you give us a little intro for yourself?

Kaili Meyer 00:00:33  Yes. Thank you so much for having me. I cannot get over. Your hair is so cute. I just want to say I recently this is chopped for me and you. Yours is what? In my brain I was like, I think I could handle that, but then I’m like, I couldn’t quite get there. Maybe next time. But yours is inspiring me. yeah.

Jaiden Robinson 00:00:53  Thank you.

Kaili Meyer 00:00:54  You’re welcome. Okay, so, like you were saying, I am a copywriter. So I’m the founder of Reveal Studio Co. Reveal does website sales copy, brand strategy, launch copy.

Kaili Meyer 00:01:06  All the things for I would say primarily online businesses. So that’s anything from a wedding photographer to a web developer to, you know, a lawyer. like an IP lawyer, I would say typically a contract lawyer. But we also get to work with some fun brick and mortar. I call them in real life businesses. I think that’s more fun.

Jaiden Robinson 00:01:27  It is more fun.

Kaili Meyer 00:01:29  Like dentists and realtors and things like that. But yeah, I spend most of my days thinking through the strategy behind like, okay, what do we need to say on this person’s website to help them to stand out, connect with the right people? How can we create essentially a funnel at every step of the marketing? I call it an ecosystem. Make sure that people are getting where they need to go and doing the things that they need to do through words. So that’s what I. Yeah.

Jaiden Robinson 00:01:53  And you’re literally so good at it. Like when I found you on Instagram, I was like, I’m gonna read everything she says because it’s so good.

Jaiden Robinson 00:02:01  And one thing I love about you and your content too, is like, you will stand up for things that you believe in and like, I love that about you. Like on your story. So many times I’ve seen you like, respond to like people that are like marketing, like in a really unethical way. Like you’ll call it out and you’ll be like, you can really like, why would you say it that way? Maybe say it this way. And my favorite thing is that you always give like constructive criticism. Like you don’t tear anyone down, but you’re like, well, you could say the exact same thing this way and it would be like ethical or would make more sense. So I just think that’s so cool that you do that.

Kaili Meyer 00:02:36  Oh, I so appreciate that. when I was in school, I went to journalism school. My degrees are in journalism and psychology, and I used to have a sticky note that I would take with me to my different desks and jobs and whatever.

Kaili Meyer 00:02:50  And it always said, be a voice for the voiceless. My whole thing was, you know, what a privilege it is to have a gift for words. And I want to use that, use that gift like, for good. And so then when I started reveal six years ago, just seeing all of the ick in the online space and watching really good people fall for it, I was like, oh, I have to do something about this.

Jaiden Robinson 00:03:14  Yeah, you do, and you do such a good job with it. Like, I don’t know, I see stuff all the time, and I’m, like, triggered by it, but I don’t know how to respond, like, as eloquently as you like. Definitely. One time you saved me because I was, like, calling someone out, and then all these, like, haters came for me and I was like, I know the person who has been through this. And then when, like when I talk to you, you were like, well, like, did you like, do you mean it like, do you mean what you said? And I’m like, I do.

Jaiden Robinson 00:03:40  So like, I guess I have to stand by it, which I love, because you’re just like. It’s so just, like, refreshing to have that authenticity and then be like, yeah, well, if you’re brave enough to, like, call something out, then you have to be brave enough to, like, deal with what might come from that.

Kaili Meyer 00:03:56  Yes, I do think I mean, I would say I’m telling people I’m in my soft girl era right now because and I know you and I kind of talked about this, even if you have thick skin, even if you did mean it, even if you stand ten toes on it, it’s still sucks when people twist your words or say, you know, you are saying X and you’re like, no, no, no, that’s not what I’m saying. And no matter what you say, they’re not here to understand you. They’re just here to be upset. And I think with the advent of threads it has gotten I don’t know if you’re seeing this, but almost worse.

Jaiden Robinson 00:04:32  I do feel like it got worse. Like it actually kind of scared me away from threads. And I started like not really posting because I was like for some reason, like the negativity there, like it’s very like I’m like, everyone wants to like jump in on it where, like, you can kind of post an opinion on Instagram and like some people might comment, you might get some hate. Like, I don’t know, it doesn’t really spiral as much as it does like on threads.

Kaili Meyer 00:04:58  I agree 100%. I agree yeah.

Jaiden Robinson 00:05:00  I’ve been scared over there. I’m like okay, I’m just gonna like only say really basic stuff I guess I don’t know.

Kaili Meyer 00:05:07  Sometimes you have to take a little a break. That’s why that’s what I’m doing. I’m on a little soft girl break. We’ll see how long it lasts.

Jaiden Robinson 00:05:13  Okay, I love it. so question for you. Let’s talk about copywriting first. What do you feel like are the biggest mistakes? Or like, if there’s one major mistake that people make in their copywriting that’s like costing them sales or costing them to, like, not grow the way they want to.

Kaili Meyer 00:05:33  Yeah, I think the biggest overarching mistake is a lot of people think that copywriting is just writing. So they make the mistake of, oh, I’m really good at creative writing, or I always got A’s on reports in college. Yeah. And so then they think, oh, I can do my own copy, I’ll write my own website, I’ll do my own sales pages, I’ll write my own sales emails, and I’ll hire out the design or I’ll hire out something else, but I can do the copy. So I think the biggest overarching mistake is a misunderstanding of what effective copy is. High quality is a misunderstanding of. It’s an entirely different skill than creative writing or reporting or journalism or anything like that. It’s really a combination of creative writing, sales psychology and marketing. And so I think that’s the biggest mistake, is just assuming that copy is kind of the last thing that they should outsource. so and then I would say with copy. Let’s pretend somebody has already DIY their copy. It’s it’s too late to go back.

Kaili Meyer 00:06:36  I think thinking too hard about it. So, you know, because I totally understand not everybody is in a place to invest in a copywriter. Not everybody is in a place to invest in templates. I get that. I don’t think you should go into debt for any of this stuff. yeah. So let’s pretend you don’t have the budget and you do it yourself for whatever reason. A lot of times people start to write their web copy or their sales copy, and they go into like corporate speak, professionalism.

Jaiden Robinson 00:07:04  And like they lose their entire like, personality.

Kaili Meyer 00:07:08  Yeah. And they just start typing as if they’re essentially like a corporate robot and it’s like whoa, whoa, whoa. Because I think people want to sound professional, right? They think, well it’s my website. It’s important that people take me seriously. No, I’m an expert. And then you read it and they’ve lost their entire brand voice.

Jaiden Robinson 00:07:25  Yeah, that’s so interesting because I honestly am so, like, repelled by anything that sounds like corporate or like, cold in any way.

Jaiden Robinson 00:07:33  Like, please know if I go to your website and it’s like that, I’m like, oh, I want to know who you are. Like, I want to work with you, not whatever this like corporate version of you is. Yes. How do you feel? Like people can do that if they have to write their copy on their own, for whatever reason? Investments. Like how? What would you what advice would you give someone to do that?

Kaili Meyer 00:07:55  Read it out loud. I think that’s a huge thing. Read it out loud as if you were speaking. So like literally take your web copy, read everything and do it in front of like, a trusted, blunt friend. So somebody who you know isn’t just going to tell you, like, yeah, yeah, it’s so good, I love it. But somebody who’s going to stop you and be like, you would never say that, or that doesn’t sound like you because you need if you can’t do it for yourself, which is understandable.

Kaili Meyer 00:08:23  Sometimes we get too close to these things. You need somebody in your corner who can do it for you. And so I would say read it aloud, at least to yourself and be very honest. And if you’re like, that’s not going to work, then read it in front of somebody who’s going to tell you, like, yeah, that’s not it.

Jaiden Robinson 00:08:40  Yeah. Okay, I love that. and what do you feel like? Okay. I actually have a question about like, copywriting and social media because we, I feel like we focus copywriting on, like, our websites, our emails, like our sales funnels, like that kind of stuff. We’re like, okay, we need good copywriting there. But copywriting also matters on social media, which is like kind of my wheelhouse. But do you feel like if somebody’s not good at copywriting, then they’re going to not be good at content?

Kaili Meyer 00:09:07  Or because I think and this is something that isn’t black and white, there’s a lot of gray here.

Kaili Meyer 00:09:15  I would say that that’s content writing, which is different from copywriting. So it’s still a skill. It’s just tapping into different skill sets within the skill. So content writing, like writing for social media, is very similar to writing blogs and typically on like a spectrum. I would say, you know, creative writing, writing for school is far left. Like basic. I can write. Yes, direct to consumer, or B2B copywriting is far right. And then I would say content writing kind of falls in the middle, where a lot of people who wouldn’t necessarily be good at copywriting can be really good at content writing, because it’s more about engagement and information education, personality. Yeah. And yes, obviously you’re always selling. The entire reason all of us have social media is to increase our brand presence, increase awareness, eventually funnel people to paid things. Yeah. But it’s it’s a little bit different. So no, I don’t think if you aren’t going to be a great web copywriter, you couldn’t be a great content writer on social media.

Jaiden Robinson 00:10:23  You can still write good content. I agree with you. I feel like it’s so it’s smaller volume of writing, obviously, because like it’s a caption, it’s a story. It’s not like a full web copy. And for that reason, I feel like you can get through it easier and like be good at that because it’s shorter form. And I also feel like for like social media copy, like as long as you understand like some really basic sales principles, just about like fears, desires, emotions, you’re going to be able to like get by just fine and even probably really well, especially if you want to like pair that with your personality then like you’ll be fine 100%.

Kaili Meyer 00:11:00  I think social media is more about picking up on what is working right now. Paired with what do we know works always what? What are yes, even strategies.

Jaiden Robinson 00:11:11  It is that like combo of the two for sure.

Kaili Meyer 00:11:14  Yes. Whereas with websites or sales pages, sales emails, we have a little bit more research into like what the brain wants when it comes to being sold to ads, billboards.

Kaili Meyer 00:11:32  And so that stuff I feel like is more easily applied to something like a sales page. Yeah, the research can be more easily like, okay, well, we found that this needs to be centered and the header needs to be like this. That just applies better to web purposes. Whereas social media is a little bit different. It’s a lot, a lot more visual. And there’s a component of I don’t think we can really and it would be irresponsible not to mention that if you have a strong social media presence in general, if people just enjoy your content, they just like watching you up on your story. Really, there’s not a lot you could say that would make people like that wouldn’t work. Does that make sense? Yeah, like people, there are a lot of brands and and educators and service providers who like, regardless what they say, they’re going to have clients because people just love them.

Jaiden Robinson 00:12:25  Yeah, just love their personality. Like it’s just a strong personal brand. So it doesn’t really matter.

Jaiden Robinson 00:12:31  And like, there’s so much like I know it’s shorter form content, but there’s so much of it and it’s so consistent that like, it’s not like a website where if someone lands on your website, you need to like, nurture and convert them, like right on there. It’s like somebody can just like be in your community for like quite a while and you can like take them through that process multiple times a lot like more frequently. I feel like that’s why I like your website. You don’t have to rewrite the copy on it every month, like, oh, good.

Kaili Meyer 00:12:58  To go or not. Yeah, not do that.

Jaiden Robinson 00:13:02  Please. No. okay. And then one other thing that you kind of talk about a lot is like the coaching industry, which I, I’ve always loved your stance on the coaching industry and you’ve always like it’s made me question like, okay, like, should I invest in a coach. Like is that worth it? And I have been in coaching programs that are great, but I like that.

Jaiden Robinson 00:13:20  You’re like, I’ve never even really had a coach. You haven’t. Right? No, you just did it on your own, which is crazy and so cool. But what? And now you sell digital products, which most people, I feel like when they make the shift from one on one to a passive offer, that’s kind of when they have a coach. How did you figure that out on your own? And like, how did that go for you?

Kaili Meyer 00:13:42  That’s one of those things where you’re like, I don’t know, I guess I just did it. I knew I had never this is crazy. I’ve never talked about this. I have never seen a copy template before. I made my first one. I have I to this day have never seen another copywriters templates ever. I have no clue what they look like.

Jaiden Robinson 00:14:03  Yeah, I don’t think I have seen other ones either. Only yours.

Kaili Meyer 00:14:08  What are they? What is their key look like? How do they work? So I think for me, I’ve just always been.

Kaili Meyer 00:14:14  It might help to know that that’s just my personality. So when I initially went to school, I was going for kinesiology. I really thought I wanted to be a physical therapist. I was a big fitness girly. It was my entire life. Turns out being a physical therapist is not the same as getting paid to work out. I don’t know where my brain. That one’s a little bit different.

Jaiden Robinson 00:14:33  I think if you work with like, older people a lot.

Kaili Meyer 00:14:36  Oh yeah. Oh, that was the thing that threw me. They were like, you’re pretty much going to be helping old people with knee problems. And I was like, oh, I have some grave mistake. and so writing has always been, I would say, my number one skill, the thing that I knew, probably the only thing I knew I was going to be better than the majority people in a room. Right? Yeah. There was nothing else that I was like the best at. But writing was very much treated like art, where it was like, well, what are you? And it is an art.

Kaili Meyer 00:15:07  But it was like, what are you going to do? Be an author? And people are like, that’s not a real job. So I didn’t pursue writing because I didn’t know, well, how am I going to make a living? So when I decided kinesiology wasn’t for me, I switched. I went to the journalism school and I was like, I’m thinking about switching over to go into journalism. And the head advisor there said, why don’t you get on as a writer at like the newspaper or one of the magazines? I went to Iowa State, very well known journalism school, a bunch of really great magazines, publications to write for. I tried three of them, and I was like, yeah, none of these are for me. And so I said, I’m just going to make my own magazine. And I went. I went back to the advisor and I told him this, and he’s like, nobody’s done that for five years. That’s like a lot of work. You have to create an entire constitution, like you have to create a sound like a group.

Kaili Meyer 00:16:01  Then you have to create a constitution for it, and then you have to pitch in front of, like the board to get funding, and then you have to get a staff like you have to you have to fill out your set. And I’m sitting there and he’s like, you’re not even a journalism student. And I was like, well, I’m going to do it. And I did it in a semester. We had a staff of almost 50. We had full funding.

Jaiden Robinson 00:16:23  Crazy.

Kaili Meyer 00:16:24  80 page print magazine twice a year. Yeah. Everything I founded and led, I was 20 years old. That is crazy what I was doing.

Jaiden Robinson 00:16:34  It’s not like night naivete. I don’t really know how you say that word, but that, like, gets you there because you’re like, that can’t be that hard. Yeah.

Kaili Meyer 00:16:41  You literally like, well, my mindset is always, I’m gonna do it like I’m done. I might as well start. And so I think the same thing happened with digital products.

Kaili Meyer 00:16:54  Like I was like, well, I don’t really want to make a course, but I would like to make additional income. So I’m going to build templates. I thought about what are people hiring me for? And really what happened was 2020 was a very big year for reveal, to the point that I had multiple members on my team writing, and we were still turning down probably 2 to 3 clients a week. Wow. Yeah. And I realized I honestly felt bad about it. I was like, I’m just turning them away and giving them nothing. Like I’m like, no, I can’t write your sales emails.

Jaiden Robinson 00:17:29  Goodbye, goodbye. Good luck out there.

Kaili Meyer 00:17:31  Yeah. And so I was like, all right, that’s a problem. And so that’s really what made me build out templates, because I wanted to be able to say, hey, I can’t do it, but everything I would have done is in this template.

Jaiden Robinson 00:17:41  Yeah, I love that. And you’re you’re templates are so awesome. I do like content copy for my clients that are on Instagram eight, eight, eight.

Jaiden Robinson 00:17:53  And I loved the way you did it. Like when I saw yours, I used your like bracketing and like color coding the kind of way that you do that for my copy with them so that they could fill it in really easily. And I just was like, oh my gosh. And the emails that I use from you were the, Black Friday ones and they worked so well. I was just like, she’s a genius. Like, yay! She’s literally a genius.

Kaili Meyer 00:18:20  Thank you. Yes. It’s so nice to talk to people who use them. I mean, I get a lot of people in my DMs who will say, you know, I bought this, I used it and it went really well, but it’s nice getting a little bit more, I don’t know, info on how like the experience is and if they’re easy to use and all that. So that’s good to know because. So awesome. Like I said, I’ve never seen another one I did.

Jaiden Robinson 00:18:43  I love I think that’s so special because like then it’s just your own thing.

Jaiden Robinson 00:18:48  Like it’s your own thing that you thought of, which makes me think of you are kind of in people’s businesses that have digital products. What do you see people like do wrong when they’re launching digital products that make it, like, not go the way they want?

Kaili Meyer 00:19:03  Yeah, I think there’s two big things. The first thing I would say, not vetting the idea or getting proof of concept. I think a lot of people just say they just want to have digital products, right? And so they are like, well, I want this and they build it. They put all this time into it. They don’t make sure they have no proof that people want it, or people are going to buy it, and then it doesn’t sell. And it’s not always even that. The idea itself was bad. It could just be how they packaged it. They made it, of course, and people just wanted a guide. They made it an e-book and people wanted it to be short trainings. Like, you have to make sure that the thing you’re building is what people want before you put so much time into it, because then you’re going to be burnt out, bummed out, and you’re probably not going to want to try again.

Kaili Meyer 00:19:50  because it can really feel like defeating. Yeah. And then I would say truly not marketing it enough. I say this all the time. People should be annoyed. You want people to be annoyed. You want them to think this girl will not shut up about this thing she made? Yeah. Then and only then have we talked about it enough.

Jaiden Robinson 00:20:13  No, that’s literally so true. And it’s something I try to coach my clients onto. Like people are really hesitant to sell. And it goes with what you said earlier in the call. You’re like, we are literally in business to sell. And who are we kidding? Who are we kidding? Like, that’s what I want to say is like, you’re here to sell. People know that you’re going to sell.

Kaili Meyer 00:20:33  And no one is shocked.

Jaiden Robinson 00:20:34  That’s why they followed you, is to literally be sold to and like. But yet we’re so scared to talk about our things and it doesn’t make sense.

Kaili Meyer 00:20:43  I think people are almost like embarrassed because they view it as like asking for money.

Kaili Meyer 00:20:50  I’m like, listen, you’re not knocking on someone’s door with a basket of chocolates for a fundraiser and like asking them to pay $5 for a bar of chocolate. And even that, it’s like it is what it is. You literally are providing them something of value in return. It’s an exchange. That is what people are here for. This is a marketplace. We are here to exchange goods, services, currency. Yeah.

Jaiden Robinson 00:21:14  And yeah, I think people get like tripped up on that. And it’s like, but if you believe in your offer, like if you really believe in what you do and like, you think that you’re the best at it, like, yep, you’re gonna want to sell it like for sure. Because you know that every time you sell it, you’re helping someone, right, with their problem. It’s definitely like a mindset thing. how would you recommend someone, like, test something before they launch it? Yeah. How do you get proof of concept.

Kaili Meyer 00:21:44  I think there’s a lot of ways to do this, and it really just depends on what the thing is, right? I think the simplest is are there other people doing it and it’s getting eaten up.

Kaili Meyer 00:21:53  Right. Like, is this a thing that people can’t get enough of? We’ve seen that with really the advent, I would say 2019, 2020, 2021. If you built an online course, it doesn’t even frickin matter what it was about. People were going to buy it. People were desperate for online education because everybody was stuck at home, bored to tears, couldn’t leave, and they were like, well, I want to at least feel like I’m doing something. And so online courses. So like the easiest thing is, is it working for other people? right. So that’s like level one. Level two, if we have no proof of that would be like talking about it on social media, talking like asking around in your own way. So if you get a lot of really good story engagement when you ask questions or put question boxes, you can do it that way. If you don’t get a lot of engagement like that, you can literally ask your network and just describe what you’re doing and see.

Kaili Meyer 00:22:45  I would say depending on how unique your product is, you’re going to want to be careful with that because you don’t really want to give away. Yeah, you’re.

Jaiden Robinson 00:22:51  Gonna steal it.

Kaili Meyer 00:22:52  Yeah. But you can also totally do a bait around I do, I don’t call them beater rounds, but I do a round of before I put something on like a public shelf before I add it to my shop. I have probably 5 to 10 people. Try it, use it and give me all their feedback. We we have a contractual agreement where it says depending on the price point, either you get this thing for free or you get at like an extreme discount in exchange for you are going to give me your honest feedback. You’re going to answer any of my questions doing that. Usually if every tester is like, Holy crap, this was so helpful, I know I struck gold. If people are like, yeah, great, yay! Like yay you! You might know, like, okay, this needs to be spiced up somehow.

Jaiden Robinson 00:23:40  Yeah. So like at that point it’s like you don’t have to give up on it, but then, you know, like, maybe it’s not enough value or maybe you need to change the structure of it or. Right.

Kaili Meyer 00:23:49  And that when I tell people when it comes to launching is look outside the online industry. And I love looking at the entertainment industry.

Jaiden Robinson 00:23:57  Me too. It’s my favorite.

Kaili Meyer 00:23:59  I know you make great reels about it. like stand up comedians, they will test jokes in tiny venues like 1 to 200 venues before they go do a Netflix special, before they go do a Vegas show, and they take their entire book of jokes, and they tell them at all these places and they see our people laughing, okay? They’re not laughing. The reason they do that is because better to fail in front of 50 people than to fail in front of 5000. And so that’s how I feel about the testing and refinement round where it’s like, like you said, you don’t have to give up on it.

Kaili Meyer 00:24:33  If your tester said, you know, hey, X, Y and Z kind of felt like a bummer or not a great user experience. At least you failed in front of your ten testers. And now when you do release it to the public, they love it. They eat it up. Everybody’s like, Holy cow, you hit the nail on the head as opposed to releasing it to everybody. And then people are disappointed. And now it’s going to greatly impact sales moving forward. Because now the whole your whole following knows that it wasn’t up to par.

Jaiden Robinson 00:25:01  Yeah. That’s so important I think though like it’s so important to deliver value or else like you’re going to lose your even in like a freebie. I think people are like they’ll just like throw a freebie together. But like your freebie really needs to like be a zinger or else like you’re going to lose people there, which is like, that’s a bummer because you could convert like all of those people into a higher ticket offer 100%. Yeah. It’s crazy.

Jaiden Robinson 00:25:30  so your digital product journey to you started it as like a passive stream. And was that just because you were completely booked out of one on one projects or and you’re like, I’m at capacity and I can’t raise my prices Or. Like what?

Kaili Meyer 00:25:45  Mostly. I think it would be silly to pretend like I wasn’t intrigued by making more money. Obviously, I, wanted more income. And so when I left school, I got I worked in a fortune 500 investment company as a thought capital writer. So in marketing.

Jaiden Robinson 00:26:08  Yeah.

Kaili Meyer 00:26:09  And finance has always been something that’s really intriguing to me. And then working in it for two years and learning so much about it. The idea of personal finance and making like, really smart financial moves is just something that I really enjoy. I read finance books, I’m a big finance nerd, and so for me, I always knew I want multiple consistent revenue streams. And so after year one in business, right, because the first goal is like just make money in your business.

Jaiden Robinson 00:26:40  Just survive.

Kaili Meyer 00:26:41  Just pay the bills. Yeah. And so once I got to a place where I was like, not only am I paying the bills, but like you said, I’m booked out, I can’t I literally can’t take more clients even if I wanted to. At that point, it was like, okay, well, what other revenue stream can I do? And like I said, I didn’t want to do a course. I didn’t want to be a coach. and really, what it left was digital products. And so I was like, well, those actually do make sense for my industry.

Jaiden Robinson 00:27:07  Yeah, they really do make sense for your industry. And that’s why yours are so good. That’s so interesting. And you first started doing it. You said like it was it was a smaller part of your income rate was like passive. But then as you’ve kind of grown, you’ve shifted more towards that. It’s a it’s a larger percentage of your income now. What has that done for you.

Jaiden Robinson 00:27:29  Like do you work less or do you work the same and take on better projects.

Kaili Meyer 00:27:35  I wouldn’t go as far as to say a workaholic because when I hear workaholic I think like you can’t take a vacation, you are working until 10 p.m. but I do genuinely. I mean, I love my job, and so I think what it’s done for me is it’s released pressure where it’s like I might be working the same or close to the same hours, but it’s not as it’s not because I feel like I need to, it’s because I want to. And so then I’m like, well, I get to build out more products. I get to work on more collaborations, I get to put a little bit more time into my social media show up more on stories. So I think it’s just released. Pressure would be the biggest thing.

Jaiden Robinson 00:28:14  I love that so much because I think two things happen. One, people want digital product so that they don’t have to work as much, which I also like. There’s no shame in that at all.

Jaiden Robinson 00:28:24  But I’m sure that before you got to that point, so there was a point in which you were completely booked, you couldn’t take on more clients even if you wanted to, and you realized, okay, but I want another revenue stream. For whatever reason, I’m sure there was a period of time you went through where you were working a lot. Trying to get that off the ground while you were at capacity. Is that true?

Kaili Meyer 00:28:46  Yeah, I was probably working more than I was before. To be honest, what worked for me was at the time, my partner was in a job where he worked seven days a week, 8 to 10 hour days.

Jaiden Robinson 00:29:00  Oh my God. Yeah, yeah.

Kaili Meyer 00:29:02  And so for me, I’m like, what the heck else am I going to do? I was going to gym for two hours every day, training my dog. I adopted a doctor. But we also have to remember this was 2020 when certain events were going on around the globe.

Jaiden Robinson 00:29:15  Yeah, right.

Kaili Meyer 00:29:17  so there wasn’t that much to do. And so when I think about it, I have never put it this way. I have never pulled an all nighter working. I have never I don’t even know if I’ve worked a ten hour day since starting my business. Like, for me, a long day if I work eight hours something. I mean, I’m in the middle of a launch. I’ve always been pretty good at prioritizing. Life before work in the sense of like our exchange. Does that make sense?

Jaiden Robinson 00:29:47  Totally makes perfect sense.

Kaili Meyer 00:29:49  I think the most time put in honestly, is the back end of adding something to your business. Like I had to figure out where am I going to host my shop. Okay, Shopify. All right, now I have to learn a new platform and then like now I have to get everything onto Shopify and now I need to, like, make Shopify look nice. And then when I had made a little bit of money from it, it was like, okay, well, now I need to have it actually designed by professionals.

Kaili Meyer 00:30:19  So it looks like it fits my brand. So there, it’s kind of like the back end took up the most time. I was like, well, and now I also need to talk about it enough on social media because digital products are like all the rage right now, but in 2020 they were less so I would say it was courses.

Jaiden Robinson 00:30:40  Yeah, I like that shift too. It was like courses. And then like I it was like courses. And now I feel like people are a little bit burned out on courses and they just want like the digital product. They want it basically like done for you. almost. Or they want like one on one. Yeah, exactly. And I think it is the economy. Like they want like the juice and the squeeze to line up because they’re more like worried about where their dollars are going and if the pay off is there.

Kaili Meyer 00:31:11  Yes. And the idea of spending $2,200 on an online course feels a little bit more, tough to swallow right now when you’re, like, $2,200 for a lot of people, rightfully so.

Kaili Meyer 00:31:24  That is a lot of money. And in 2020, we were just throwing that around like, that’s one thing that.

Jaiden Robinson 00:31:31  The government was just giving it to us. Oh my gosh.

Kaili Meyer 00:31:34  I’m like, can we go back? And I’m just kidding. I that is one thing in the online space, though, I will say does worry me is our perspective of what a lot of money is. Oh my gosh, I don’t know if you have like in real life friends, like once again, like people not in the online space. And when we get together and, you know, for girls night or for dinner or something and we’re talking about work, if somebody was getting paid a salary that a lot of people in the online space make for their business, we would be like, jaw drop, what fricking job do you have? Right? But in the online space, we’re like, yeah, but are you a seven figure founder?

Jaiden Robinson 00:32:14  Oh my God, you do.

Kaili Meyer 00:32:19  You make 20 k passive months while drinking a mai tai on the beach.

Kaili Meyer 00:32:23  And it’s like, what are you possibly talking about? Like, do you fly your family first class to Europe once a quarter?

Jaiden Robinson 00:32:30  No, that’s not normal. That is not normal. And I saw your post. I was I recorded an episode last night with Jordan from The Space Social, and we were talking about you posted a thread. I don’t remember if you responded it to it or if it was your thread, but I was talking about like, the goalpost keeps moving.

Kaili Meyer 00:32:49  Yes, that was my thread. I said. I saw an ad that said how to go from 1 million to 100 million. The goalpost. I mean, it’s on wheels.

Jaiden Robinson 00:32:59  A hundred million like you guys. I think the thing, too, is, like people do not understand. Like, that’s not even necessarily the lifestyle that you want. Like, I don’t think people are connected with themselves enough to know, like, actually, this amount of money would be like, holy shit, which is a lot lower than you think.

Kaili Meyer 00:33:23  Yes, I don’t. Once again, tapping into my financial background, I don’t think like if you don’t, if you are not being smart and intentional with your $100,000 a year, which once again is still a lot of money making.

Jaiden Robinson 00:33:36  So much money.

Kaili Meyer 00:33:37  If you and your laptop and your idea have generated six figures like claps all around, I think we, like I said, the goalpost is continuing to move and so then we don’t celebrate these things like we should. $100,000 from you and your silly little idea on your silly little laptop. You guys, that’s a big frickin deal. Anyone who’s made.

Jaiden Robinson 00:33:57  You feel crazy.

Kaili Meyer 00:33:58  Any. Thank you. Yes. but if you get that 100 K and you aren’t investing in appropriately, saving it appropriately, designating it appropriately, setting like you aren’t going to know what to do when you make 200, 500, 1 million, 100 million. I just don’t think some of the highest paid athletes aren’t making 100 million.

Jaiden Robinson 00:34:19  I’m just like, we don’t need I mean, good for you.

Jaiden Robinson 00:34:22  I guess, if that’s what you want. Like, I’m not gonna shame you for that, but, like, you would probably, like, live your best life on, like, 300,000. Like, I’m just like, I don’t know, it’s I, I don’t know what it is that makes people just want more and more and more. More.

Kaili Meyer 00:34:42  It’s because there is no it. When the goal is strictly just a number that you’ve just made up in your head, an arbitrary number that you think, well, this is where I will feel successful, or this is where I’ll feel happy, but you can’t tell me what you’re going to do with it, which really defines the happiness. Of course, when you get there, you’re going to be like, well, now what? Okay, so now I made 200 K. Nothing changed about my life, really. Like maybe you bought a designer bag. Like, are you so thrilled? Is your life so much better now that you get to put your belongings in that which is great.

Kaili Meyer 00:35:14  I’m not here to hate on what anyone does with their money. What I’m trying to say is, when you don’t have a deeper reason that you want to make a specific amount of money, there is no way you’re going to be happy when you get there.

Jaiden Robinson 00:35:26  No.

Kaili Meyer 00:35:27  You’re just because. Okay, now what? Now I want to get another one.

Jaiden Robinson 00:35:31  Another one? Yeah. It’s it’s honestly crazy. And it’s hard not to get sucked into. I, I don’t really like the money marketing thing strategy that people have of, like, here’s how you can make this much money. Like I understand that that like sometimes it’s true. Of course, I’m like, sometimes it’s true. Maybe it’s always true. I don’t know, but I’m like, I think that takes away from like the work that goes into things. I think it I think it cheapens what you do when it’s just only about that. Like, yeah, 100%.

Kaili Meyer 00:36:06  I think what’s difficult is. People on the other end of it are very loud.

Kaili Meyer 00:36:13  And so there aren’t a lot of quote unquote safe spaces. I do not want to be that dramatic, like nobody’s in danger here. But there’s not a lot of safe spaces to talk about money and income in this way without somebody just jumping in and being like, well, you just have a bad mindset. There’s nothing wrong with wanting wealth. And it’s like, no, we’re not saying there’s anything wrong with wanting wealth. Like, I think, I think I would wager to say the majority of people would like to have some level of wealth. I think especially in, you know, America, Canada, Europe. I can’t really speak. I haven’t, I haven’t lived in anywhere besides America, in Australia. but in those countries, like truly having wealth in any country, but makes a really big difference, right. So I think it would be silly to say anyone doesn’t want that. especially right now, like the world is. So’s big. So’s on the global economy.

Jaiden Robinson 00:37:07  I guess it’s vibes.

Jaiden Robinson 00:37:09  Big housing market.

Kaili Meyer 00:37:11  I think we just need to remember that there’s gray. And so it’s like there is a level of I want I want more money, but I will know when enough is enough. And by saying this is enough doesn’t mean you’re closing yourself off to future success or you have a bad mindset. It just means you’re going to allow yourself to reach a goal. And then, I don’t know, pause to celebrate that you reach that goal before you just say, oh, well, now that I got here, I actually think it’s 100,000 more.

Jaiden Robinson 00:37:39  Yeah, exactly. Like, it’s totally awesome to have goals and to want more, but I think it’s like the constant wanting more that is like that’s what’s negative is it’s like. But did you even, like take a second to like, bask in what you’ve already done and like those accomplishments and like the fact that you can pay your bills and your mortgage and whatever, like easily. And then can we like then can we move it on later, like after we’ve recognized this? Yeah, 100 million.

Kaili Meyer 00:38:13  I mean, I could talk about the online spaces money conversation for so long because there’s also the element of there’s a lot of talk about income and not a lot of talk about wealth management, money management. And so it’s like you could make a ton of money. You could make 500,000 for the next ten years. And if instead of doing something smart with that, instead of managing it well, you just upgraded your lifestyle. You built a house, you got a nice car, you started going on vacations. Guess what? At the end of those ten years, you’re still going to have to work. You might never be able to actually retire and continue to live the life that you built, because unfortunately, you set up a life where you need constant income, whereas if you make great money, make smart money management decisions, invest appropriately, you’ll get to retire and continue to live the life you want without working. And there’s just not enough conversation around that.

Jaiden Robinson 00:39:13  No, there is not. There’s one girl that I follow and I can’t think of her handle now, but she’s this cute blonde girl who teaches about, like, personal finance.

Jaiden Robinson 00:39:22  And her story was like, she’s in a lot of debt. And then now she. Yeah, but I can’t think of her handle. Stop it. Our girl is from Iowa. Yeah, but that she talks about that a lot. And I really love that. And also with what you’re saying. I saw TikTok the other day and this girl was like, if you it doesn’t matter how much money you make if you spend all of it. Because like, if you spend all of it, then you. That’s like the most money you’re like, ever gonna have. Like, well, this is how I feel about.

Kaili Meyer 00:39:53  People who come out and say they made like 400 K and a launch like three. I’m like, where, where is it? And then they’re like, where did.

Jaiden Robinson 00:40:02  You put it?

Kaili Meyer 00:40:03  Well, literally I’m like, where did it go? What did you do with it? That’s crazy because it’s the people who like made their seven figure earners. And then the next year they tear their business down, go back to corporate, and then eventually they come out with their story of like, I was struggling to pay my bills and I’m like, oh, where did the money go?

Jaiden Robinson 00:40:24  What did you do with it?

Jaiden Robinson 00:40:25  And like income is awesome.

Jaiden Robinson 00:40:27  But like also expenses like also expenses. And like for a lot of people, the more money to make they make, the higher their expenses go. Like unless you’re you have a lot of passive income and it’s just like not mentioned. Like nobody wants to say, like I made $10,000 on this launch, but I spent $5,000 on copy, a social media manager or whatever. Like they don’t talk about like the expenses. And it’s like, cool, you profited 5000, which is still awesome, but it’s different than 10-K. Yes.

Kaili Meyer 00:41:01  100%. Oh, I love this conversation.

Jaiden Robinson 00:41:03  Me too. Okay, one more question for you about like, business stuff, but what do you think is something people can do to really stand out in a saturated market? Because you really stand out. Like, I don’t even think I follow another copywriter because I’m just like, you get it? But how would you recommend other businesses do that?

Kaili Meyer 00:41:22  I would recommend just to constantly remind yourself that you’re not just going to be known for what you do, right? I’m not just going to be known for copy.

Kaili Meyer 00:41:32  I would say probably 80% of my social media the time I put into social media. I’m not talking about copy. I’m known for other things. And so let’s think about other brands. Nike isn’t Nike because they make the best shoe. Apple isn’t Apple because they have the best technology. In fact, a lot of tech companies would argue Apple has not great taste.

Jaiden Robinson 00:41:54  Good.

Kaili Meyer 00:41:54  Yeah, yes. But they’re known for other things. Like they’re known for being at the top of the industry for other reasons.

Jaiden Robinson 00:42:01  They’re known for being like simple and like.

Kaili Meyer 00:42:03  Or like having great, interfaces. Apple’s interfaces mean it’s sleek. It all works together across their products. Nike is a fun, empowering brand. The emotion they invoke. yeah. And so it’s just remembering that it would be so hard. I cannot imagine getting to where I am today if every day I just said, what am I going to get on and talk about copy today? People would be like, how many times can you talk about headers? Please stop.

Kaili Meyer 00:42:33  And I would agree. I would be like, this is so boring. So I would say remember that especially if you’re a service provider or a coach or an educator, you you have a personal brand. You just do. Yeah. Please argue with me. and so lean into that like what is what are your things kind of think about the little things that make you you that you get on and talk about. And it’s like, oh, Caleb’s not talking about copy today, but she’s talking about this other thing that we love when Kaili talks about it has nothing to do with websites. Yeah, I think that really helps. Whether that’s taking it like you have two goofy looking dogs that you are always posting your elderly gremlin looking dog and you’re like, this is the Frankenstein again, up out, you know what I mean? And people, yes, I think what bugs me is a lot of people, especially when it comes to about pages on websites, you’ll see a lot of people say no one cares what your favorite music is or what your taco order is.

Kaili Meyer 00:43:29  Yes they do. They do care. They care because they do. And it makes you human. And number two, think about it. If they’re on your website and the first step is they’re going to inquire and then book a discovery call, which is a lot of a lot of people’s process. They want something to break the ice. And so if you got you talked about if if I was in a food truck battle, I’m betting on taco truck. You get they get to get on that call big. What taco like what would you order do you. Yeah. It just gives them something to talk about it. And it makes you human. It makes it feel more, natural. I would say they feel like they know you. And so I would. I would bring that into all elements of your branding.

Jaiden Robinson 00:44:15  I love that you’re recommending all elements of branding, because I do feel like people are starting to understand that, like they have to do that on social media, but like also on your website, also on your podcast, like in other areas of your branding as well.

Jaiden Robinson 00:44:29  And I just you do have a personal brand, whether you want to or not, you have a personal brand with your family, your friends. If you exist, you have a personal brand. There’s yes, people know you for a reason. And it’s I mean, if you want to be like a lazy marketer, it’s the easiest way to differentiate yourself, like be you. And also like I think people are scared to admit, like, yeah, industries are saturated. There are a lot of social media managers, there are a lot of wedding photographers, there are a lot of photographers, there are a lot of coaches like these industries do have saturation, but truthfully, no one’s going to hire you unless they actually like you because of that, because there’s so many options. They’re going to hire you because you make them feel comfortable.

Kaili Meyer 00:45:15  I think that you hit the nail on the head when you said they’re going to hire you. A lot of people are going to make hiring decisions based on things that have nothing to do with your skills and your talents.

Jaiden Robinson 00:45:26  Like, I didn’t always.

Kaili Meyer 00:45:27  Have a portfolio on my website and my portfolio is actually really outdated. I would say 90% of people who book me to write their websites have not seen a singular website I’ve written. They have no clue. They just know they vibe with me for something else. Like yesterday, I had a call with a potential client and she was like, the second I found out how much you loved dogs, I was sold. I knew nothing else. I was like, oh, she’s the only copywriter I want to work with. And it makes me giggle because I’m like, probably the majority of copywriters like dogs, right? But they’re not talking about it. So this girl doesn’t know. And so I would encourage people like the things that you think nobody cares about are so irrelevant. It could be the reason somebody picks you over somebody else.

Jaiden Robinson 00:46:12  And it makes it so much easier to pivot your business to when you no longer want to do what you’re doing. If you have personal connections with people, like they’re going to trust you when you go from social media management to coaching or whatever, or go from photography to coaching or even not a coaching transition, those are the only ones I can think of.

Jaiden Robinson 00:46:31  You’re like, but, but if you were a coach, a coach, everyone’s a coach. No, but like, maybe you’re a social media manager and then you shift into copywriting or something. The trust can be translated over when you, like, change your skill set. So I think that’s important to remember too.

Kaili Meyer 00:46:50  Yes. Love that. Because they know you. They feel like they know you. Yeah. And you are still the person running the brand.

Jaiden Robinson 00:46:56  Yeah. Okay. I love that so much. My last question for you is a good one. It’s a zinger. Some people get stuck on it, but I don’t think you will. So what is one piece of advice you wish you could give your younger self?

Kaili Meyer 00:47:09  Business related?

Jaiden Robinson 00:47:11  It could be both or either one business, personal.

Kaili Meyer 00:47:16  Whatever personal, I would say not even learn to trust your gut. Just like trust your gut and then do the thing. for me, something I struggle with is I have a very strong intuition, a very strong gut feeling toward everything.

Kaili Meyer 00:47:33  But then I’ll question it. So, you know, kind of like the give me a sign and then there’s like a billboard and you’re like, give me another sign.

Jaiden Robinson 00:47:40  A different one, a.

Jaiden Robinson 00:47:42  Different one. I can.

Kaili Meyer 00:47:43  See it. There’s a glare. I would say that for personal is don’t just trust your gut. Because I do know, I guess that I don’t listen to your gut and then trusted enough to do the thing. Yeah. Business too. And then in business, continue to build relationships, I think. And and I think I’ve done a great job of this. But I would remind the younger me, when I first built my business, I kind of got absorbed a little bit into a specific person’s orbit, right? I wrote copies and became a little bit known for being that person’s copywriter. And then everybody who was under her umbrella hired me. And then it was like, everyone who hired me found me because of this girl. And while that was cool because I got, you know, clients, I made money, I think I, I stopped for a probably about a year expanding my web of people.

Kaili Meyer 00:48:38  I kind of was like, oh, the networking is being done for me. All of these people are finding me. I’m why would I put more effort into building relationships when I’m booked and busy? And I I’ve definitely done a better job of that over the past few years, but I think I would just remind little entrepreneur me that like, no, you need to continue to network quite literally forever.

Jaiden Robinson 00:49:00  Yeah, just like make it a habit. I think that happens to a lot of people, like I’ve done it too. But I think it happens when you get busy and you get like kind of comfortable that you get that feeling of like, I guess I don’t need this anymore. But then it’s like, well, you might need it in like.

Jaiden Robinson 00:49:17  Exactly in 18.

Jaiden Robinson 00:49:18  Months or something. Like, you don’t know, those leads could like dry up. And so just not putting like all of your eggs in one basket I guess would be like my take on that is it’s like just make sure you’re like diversifying those things.

Jaiden Robinson 00:49:31  100%.

Jaiden Robinson 00:49:32  Because and then also like, what if that one person doesn’t like you anymore, like for whatever reason, like, I don’t know, that would be scary.

Jaiden Robinson 00:49:39  Oh yeah. Well.

Kaili Meyer 00:49:42  Then your entire circle of of friends and network is gone. Yeah.

Jaiden Robinson 00:49:46  You go down. No. Oh, I love that so much. And thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I’ve loved chatting with you and I just appreciate all of your knowledge. Thank you so much.

Jaiden Robinson 00:49:56  Well, thank you for having me.

Kaili Meyer 00:49:57  I was excited to be here today.

Jaiden Robinson 00:49:59  Okay. Bye. First, I want to say thank you so much for being here and listening to my podcast. It means the world to me, and I just appreciate this community more than you could ever know. If you love this episode or a previous episode that you’ve listened to, go ahead and head to the. Leave a review link in the show notes and leave us a review. We would really appreciate it and we’re so glad that you’re here.

Jaiden Robinson 00:50:24  Thank you.